Showing posts with label Gay Marriage. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Gay Marriage. Show all posts

3/24/14

Gay Marriage, Abortion, Contraceptives - Some Christians Say No Love For You!

So :"gay" rights are being supported all over the place recently and the "religious right" are fairly freaking out but not giving up their fight to have rights for themselves that they deny to others.
Michigan, where I live, just had their marriage ban declared unconstitutional, and in spite of supporting what is right - equality - our attorney general is hot to fight against it.
So, in light of all the change in the country to acceptance of recognition of equal rights for all, what is the TeaPartyChurch up to?
Two cases going up to the Supreme Court have big potential to sink them or set all of us up to live under fascism.

Thanks to Think Progress.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/03/24/3416549/hobby-lobby-they-have-a-plan/

AP Photo/Randy Squires, File

"Read This One Document To Understand What The Christian Right Hopes To Gain From Hobby Lobby"

By Ian Millhiser on March 24, 2014

2009 was a grim year for social conservatives. Barack Obama was an ambitious and popular new president. Republicans, and their conservative philosophy, were largely discredited in the public eye by a failed war and a massive recession. And the GOP’s effort to reshape its message was still in its awkward adolescence. If the conservative movement had a mascot, it would have been a white man dressed as Paul Revere and waving a misspelled sign.
Amidst this wreckage, more than two hundred of the nation’s leading Christian conservatives joined together in a statement expressing their dismay at the state of the nation. “Many in the present administration want to make abortions legal at any stage of fetal development,” their statement claimed, while “[m]ajorities in both houses of Congress hold pro-abortion views.” Meanwhile, they feared that the liberals who now controlled the country “are very often in the vanguard of those who would trample upon the freedom of others to express their religious and moral commitments to the sanctity of life and to the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union of husband and wife.”
The signatories to this statement, which they named the “Manhattan Declaration,” included many of America’s most prominent Catholic bishops and clergy of similar prominence in other Christian sects. It included leaders of top anti-gay organizations like the National Organization for Marriage, and of more broadly focused conservative advocacy shops such as the Family Research Council. It included university presidents and deans from Christian conservative colleges. And it included the top editors from many of the Christian right’s leading publications.
Perhaps most significantly, however, the document’s signatories includes Alan Sears, the head of one of the two conservative legal groups litigating what are likely to be the two most important cases decided by the Supreme Court this term. Indeed, the Manhattan Declaration offers a virtual roadmap to understanding what religious conservatives hope to gain from Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood v. Sebelius, two cases the justices will hear Tuesday which present the question whether a business owner’s religious objections to birth control trump their legal obligation to include it in their employee’s health plan.

The Roadmap

“[F]reedom of religion and the rights of conscience” the Declaration claims, “are gravely jeopardized by those who would use the instruments of coercion to compel persons of faith to compromise their deepest convictions.” In the eyes of the Declaration’s signers, liberal forces had captured the arms of government and they were now prepared to use their political dominance to force conservative Christians to betray their own moral values. And the signatories were particularly concerned about two items — abortion and gay rights:
We see this, for example, in the effort to weaken or eliminate conscience clauses, and therefore to compel pro-life institutions (including religiously affiliated hospitals and clinics), and pro-life physicians, surgeons, nurses, and other health care professionals, to refer for abortions and, in certain cases, even to perform or participate in abortions. We see it in the use of anti-discrimination statutes to force religious institutions, businesses, and service providers of various sorts to comply with activities they judge to be deeply immoral or go out of business.
Remember last month’s fight over whether anti-gay business owners in Arizona could invoke “religious liberty” and get away with denying services to gay people? Look no further than the Manhattan Declaration to find the intellectual origins of the bill that would have given those business owners that right.
Similarly, while the Declaration refers explicitly to “abortions,” the document calls for a vision of religious liberty that extends to birth control as well. According to Hobby Lobby’s brief in the Supreme Court, the company filed its lawsuit because it objects to “four drugs or devices that can prevent an embryo from implanting in the womb—namely, Plan
B, Ella, and two types of intrauterine devices.” Hobby Lobby’s owners believe that these drugs and devices “risk killing an embryo,” and that providing a health plan which covers these services “makes them complicit in abortion.”
It’s should be noted that Hobby Lobby’s concerns are not grounded in science. As a brief filed by multiple health provider groups — including the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists — explains, “there is a scientific distinction between a contraceptive and an abortifacient and the scientific record demonstrates that none of the FDA-approved contraceptives covered by the Mandate are abortifacients.” So Hobby Lobby isn’t just claiming the right to object to abortion, it is claiming the right to label many common forms of birth control a form of “abortion” and object to those as well — even though drugs and devices don’t actually cause abortions.
The Manhattan Declaration, in other words, predicts both of the major fights over “religious liberty” that confront the nation this year. While the Declaration warned about “anti-discrimination statutes” forcing business owners to take actions they object to on religious grounds, one of the leading lawmakers backing the Arizona bill admitted that it was intended as a response to instances in other states where anti-gay business owners were “punished for their religious beliefs” because they denied service to gay customers in violation of those states’ anti-discrimination laws. Similarly, where the Declaration speaks of conservative Christians being forced to “participate in abortions,” Hobby Lobby claims that the law is making it “complicit in abortion.”

The Firewall

In case there is any doubt, the Manhattan Declaration is a stunningly radical document. It opposes not just abortion and marriage equality, but also “non-marital sexual cohabitation” and “the discredited idea of unilateral divorce.” The Declaration also ends with a pledge to openly defy the law. “[W]e will not comply with any edict that purports to compel our institutions to participate in abortions . . . nor will we bend to any rule purporting to force us to bless immoral sexual partnerships [or] treat them as marriages or the equivalent[.]”
Shortly after Gov. Jan Brewer (R-AZ) vetoed the Arizona bill, however, one of the nation’s most prominent social conservatives explained that conservative objections to reproductive liberty and marriage equality do not necessarily need to end in civil disobedience. Marriage equality, the New York Times‘ Ross Douthat claimed, is inevitable. Yet, when it comes, Douthat also hoped for a world where, if “a Mormon caterer or a Catholic photographer objected to working at a same-sex wedding,” the rest of the country would allow them to “opt out” of any legal obligation to comply with anti-discrimination laws.
Douthat framed this kind of arrangement as the terms of social conservatives’ “surrender,” although it is a weird kind of surrender that allows the losing side to dictate terms to the victors at the moment that society has recognized many of their longstanding views as abhorrent. If Brown v. Board of Education had followed Douthat’s logic, it would have said that segregated schools violate the Constitution — except that whites-only schools are fine in Alabama and Mississippi.
Nevertheless, Douthat’s column provides a helpful window into the kind of reasoning that animates the Hobby Lobby litigation, the bill Brewer vetoed and the Manhattan Declaration. The logic of all three is that religious conservatives must comply with the law — but only up to a point. When the law asks employers to cover abortions that aren’t actually abortions, or when it asks them to treat gay men, lesbians and bisexuals as if they are human beings entitled to the same dignity as straight men and women, then the Christian right must be given a special right to defy the law. And if the courts won’t give it to them, then the Manhattan Declaration calls upon conservative Christians to refuse to comply with the law regardless.
If Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood lose, then it remains to be seen whether either of them will actually take up this call for disobedience. Should they win, however, there should be no doubt what the Christian right’s next move will be. The Manhattan Declaration lays out two foes: reproductive liberty and gay rights. Hobby Lobby asks the Court to take care of the former. The next lawsuit will target the latter — and it will be able to cite Hobby Lobby as a powerful precedent supporting anti-gay discrimination.
Ian Millhiser is ThinkProgress’ Justice Editor. You can follow him on Twitter at @imillhiser.

6/27/13

Even Evil Must Lose Once In A While - SCOTUS and SCROTUS

I seem to find myself rolling my eyes and letting out a big sigh of exasperation when I hear of SCOTUS delivering a decision along strictly partisan lines.
Sadly, my eyes have been suffering repetitive stress with  the current United States Supreme Court.

It is repulsive to me that the members of the Court seem to think the public that I am part of is so blind, stupid and uninterested that they can use their truly SACRED office to play politics and advance Corporate Interests over the needs of Real People.
May they all get what they deserve.

They all seem to know the LAW well enough - so when they attempt to use the color of law to promote their personal preference overturning the concept of equality in the process, I am double disgusted.

Sometimes, never without dissent, of course - SCOTUS actually gets something right - or at least right enough to promote Liberty.

So, first let me CONGRATULATE everyone, especially the Gay Community on the decision clearly stating that people who identify as Gay cannot be treated any differently that anyone else.

This is a wonderful Civil Rights victory.  I will not be surprised to find many benefits of civil rights protections suddenly enjoyed by the Gay Community in ways no one ever considered.

I hope there are lots of Happy Weddings and that love and commitment can now be officially socially revered regardless of gender or gender identification.

I hope we all recognize that govt. is playing catch-up with most of our culture and that now the rest will feel free to jump on board with the ideas of Equality, Liberty and Freedom.

While I am really and truly overjoyed by this validation of Gay Rights, I am equally crushed by the insane, idiotic SCROTUS decision to dump sec. 5 of the Voting Rights Act.

The simple fact that this was decided on strict partisan lines is a GIANT RED FLAG that Constitutionality and the Rule of Law were not considerations in the arguments of over half of the "Justices"!

Even if the intent (which surely some (D) Justices would have embraced at least in theory) was to cause Congress to expand the controls and put ALL States under the same scrutiny when it comes to voting rules and practices - and if anyone asked me to also include controls on redistricting that made it truly representative - well - even if that were the case, which it's not - even though the Court suggested that Congress could re-legislate on the issues of sec. 5 - my suggestion was obviously not their intention.

To send anything as serious as Civil Rights in general and Voting Rights in particular to the current Congress for any rational, productive, Liberty promoting action is just about the stupidest thing I think anyone could ever do!

I remember what kind of feet-in-the-streets actions were required to win recognition of Civil Rights in the 1960's and I think that is what it is going to take to get them back now that an asinine and IMO traitorous SCOTUS has thrown out Equality.

Both of these decisions should have been made some 200 years ago, recognizing and practicing true equality.

How shameful it is that today so many, and so many in power - are so ignorant of it.

Jesus called it "the Law and the Prophets" meaning The Whole of The Law. 
His brother James called it The Royal Law.
Universally we know this as The Golden Rule.

Is anyone really ignorant of this?
Is anyone ignorant of this being the foundation for the Bill of Rights of the United States of America?

Just as Jesus and James claimed it was ALL of what comprised their religion and it is obviously the foundation of ALL Liberty, Freedom and Equality promised by the United States Constitution the Justices would suggest interpretations of this ONE LAW - that overshadows and governs all other law - so completely different and at odds with it!

How can the "Justices" err so horrendously and stupidly, when they know the ONE very simple rule that governs all LAW in the United States?

Well...I'd say they just did it on purpose.

They gave Gays official recognition of their pre-existing Constitutional Protections (Equality) because somehow they felt it benifitted them personally, not because they were championing equality - though - I admit they did a really good job of describing it.  (probably some of them will regret that later)

And why they took a total racist/supremacist/fascist posture on Voting Rights is just the same. 

They felt they personally had something to gain by crapping on the Bill of Rights.

And "the people"? 

SCOTUS couldn't care less.

And they obviously feel that there is nothing that any of "the people" can do about it.

Much like a lot of other politicians and corporations that quickly jump to mind.

4/6/12

Michigan's Dictators being sued - gross corruption

I want to write a post dealing with this issue in more detail but it will take some time.  I don't think  the publishing of the problem can wait though.
Please watch this important BREAKING NEWS about Michigan's DESTRUCTION OF DEMOCRACY.
Even the State Legislature is not immune from this Republican stranglehold on Freedom and destruction of Constitutional Rule.
The clip is short.  Watch it now.
You will be FLABBERGASTED!
You should be OUTRAGED!
If video does not work or loads too slow click the link below.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-rachel-maddow-show/46973330#46973330
As Rachel reports, the Republicans are attempting to block objections to their corruption.  http://eclectablog.com/2012/04/michigan-gop-appeals-ruling-preventing-them-from-violating-the-state-constitution.html
The Rachel Maddow Show has produced some of the most extensive and in-depth coverage of Michigan's Republican Takeover and  Overt and Dictatorial War on  Democracy.  Watch more of Maddow on Michigan here. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rachel+maddow+michigan&oq=rachel+maddow+mi&aq=0p&aqi=p-p1g9&aql=&gs_nf=1&gs_l=youtube-psuggest.3.0.35i39j0l9.46417.47159.0.53239.3.3.0.0.0.0.188.539.0j3.3.0.

2/28/12

2012 Presidential Hopefuls vs. Equality, Justice and Humanity

by Rev. "Doc" Lowrey

It continually amazes me how out of touch with the creature that is "The United States of America" the Republican Party has been.

IMO they have created themselves as the most active threat to LIBERTY and the LEGALLY INVIOLABLE principles of America's founding.

Only one candidate, Senator Ron Paul, seems to have any familiarity with the actual Constitution and Bill of Rights that they seek office (supposedly) to defend!  Sadly, the senator too often misconceives or fails to recognise the need to nourish (or display, which is anathema to the current right-wing fringe) the spirit that drove the "Law's" creation.

At the heart of the matters that these contenders and many of their supporters, have no consideration for, and unbelievable as it seems perhaps no understanding of, the basics of the Constitution or the incontestability (inviolable and self-evident truths) and desirability of the concepts of Equality, Liberty or Humanity/Morality.

"The Basics" of the Constitution is still explained I think extremely well, and this should give Mitt Romney pause, by a former President and Prophet of his Mormon Church and two term U.S. Secretary of  Agriculture, Ezra T. Benson, which I recommend to all.

Benson, then an Apostle of the LDS Church, gave this as a 10 minute sermon in the church's annual General Conference, the published version of words there (from the top 15 leaders) spoken mandated by Church Law to have to members (such as Mitt) status equal to "scripture".

Why don't you get what your prophet said Mitt?

I posted the entire short and excellent essay titled The Proper Role of Government here.  Please read it!

Basically, however (If I can say it in less than 10 pages!) here is the crux of the matter.

The creature is not and cannot become greater than it's creator.

Any such attempts otherwise lack the essential foundation and are ultimately doomed.

Consider for example our current worldwide example of "what a mess"!

Government is a creature of "the people" designed to strictly, justly and humanely enforce the Constitution and to some degree nurture it's appreciation and to strictly prevent it's infringement.

The Government cannot possess or express any power not held by a single individual.  This is analogous to the idea that man cannot dictate to God or the Universe that created him (also being the foundation for the 1st amendment, though no one seems to want to notice it).

So, since (here comes the humanity part - social service) many individuals are not up to the task of "defending their own rights to be secure in their Constitutional Guarantees to determine their own thoughts and pursuits", short of infringing on others EQUAL RIGHTS, the group embarks on a joint venture and CREATES "Government" which includes all elements requisite (police, army, legislatures, judges, etc.) elements to enforce for ALL equally, the protection of their INDIVIDUAL rights.

The Government cannot act without the express consent of the Governed.

That is the Law and the reason why is just this, that a group of people, or their representative(s) cannot claim powers greater than any individual in the group possesses.

You cannot have more than 100% of something!  The powers of government are expressly derived from the powers of the individual and cannot be greater due to acting in concert,  temptation toward excess is curtailed by natural and legal limits.

The Government has no authority to do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what it was created to do by claiming authority to violate, circumvent or even to offer extreme and over-reaching  extrapolations/misconceptions of - or simply, as it pleases them, ignore, the Constitution.

So, the group of people together with their chosen Representatives, ensure that they, their personal freedom, property, personal, religious and civil rights are protected.

EQUALITY, means pretty much that everyone is protected just the same and is - not allowed, but protected in  INALIENABLE RIGHTS to pursue their interests and as long as they do not violate the same privileges in others.

This is simple!

So, in the case of race-mixing or gay marriage, gun control, etc., all persons not under restriction due to previous violation of the rights of others, are free to practice any behavior, such as marriage, in such manner as pleases them as long as...(see above).

So, we may yodel in the yard at the top of our lungs during daytime hours, but are restricted from violating our neighbors right to a peaceful nights sleep by yodeling outdoors at night, unless our behavior due to whatever factor, would not disturb others.

Using reason is implicit in our understanding of the Constitution, but we are supposed to be safe in the understanding that the INTERPRETATION of the Constitution is to be PLAIN, according to the obvious (as opposed to "narrow") reading and according to the definition of terms of the time in which they were declared and made binding on every citizen and guest.

The Constitution is supposed to be able to be "commonly" understood, that is Plain to the reasoning of the common man.  One is not supposed to be required to be an attorney to understand and operate within the Law.

Recently, Senator Rick Santorum, also a Presidential hopeful, railed against President Kennedy's defense of the "Separation of Church and State" as if he had never read the LAW in the 1st Amendment where it clearly states that Congress shall pass NO law respecting the free exercise of conscience.

No Means No!  Has anyone ever heard that?

There is no provision for Congress (or the States, Municipalities, etc. or any of their organs) to make exception to that RULE OF NO!

Exception is often made, very often - which is all UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND ILLEGAL and should, except for an often equally corrupt Judiciary be impossible to impose or maintain/enforce and which citizens (as a Constitutional Right) are not obligated to obey.

And finally, Humanity.

In the spirit of our Nation's founding, we find that there is a need for us to step up and be our brother's keeper when the need arises.

We support with labor, love and other resources, the right of our neighbor to enjoy the fruits of the Constitution; Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness - especially those experiencing hardship.

If we claim, as many do, to espouse the teachings of Jesus, we would do well to recall the foundation of his teaching, which also is the foundation of the United States of America and it's Constitution.

This teaching in the New Testament, Matthew 7:12,  is none other than the so called "Golden Rule" taught by all major religions, what James (Jesus' brother) called the "Royal Law" and which is nothing but that we must LOVE and REVERE ALL CREATION and generally express that LOVE by treating all other people with the same regard we would wish for ourselves.

All Governance, especially in the U.S.A. should spring only from that foundation and should clearly reveal that aim in it's expression.

No Republicans are offering that and our Professor of Constitutional Law President, Mr. Obama, offers - but apparently intentionally - consistently fails to deliver!

There is only one clear path to a reliable and sane future and no party that I can tell of is offering it, and one of our two major parties (or one of the two demonic heads of our "one" party) is energetically fighting against God and Country.

Shame on their intentional irresponsibility.

Shame on those who fail to recognize it for what it is.

United We Stand.

Divided We Fall.

Where does Party Politics figure in that idea?

7/3/11

The Duped and the Dead - Married, With Infidelities

I hope you enjoy this article on Non-Monogamy.
I think it is an interesting idea that we should "face reality."
Organizing our lives around the facts should be highly desirable and should be viewed as socially beneficial rather than scorned and derided - especially if that scorn is based on falsehoods about true human nature.
Wouldn't "honest" associations encourage a higher order of spiritual opportunity?
I think it would.
I wonder how many people have the courage to be honest about their animal inclinations?
Doc
PS.  GGG

The NYTimes
June 30, 2011
Married, With Infidelities
By MARK OPPENHEIMER

Last month, when the New York congressman Anthony Weiner finally admitted that he had lied, that his Twitter account had not been hacked, that he in fact had sent a picture of his thinly clad undercarriage to a stranger in Seattle, I asked my wife of six years, mother of our three children, what she thought. More specifically, I asked which would upset her more: to learn that I was sending racy self-portraits to random women, Weiner-style, or to discover I was having an actual affair. She paused, scrunched up her mouth as if she had just bitten a particularly sour lemon and said: “An affair is at least a normal human thing. But tweeting a picture of your crotch is just weird.”

How do we account for that revulsion, which many shared with my wife, a revulsion that makes it hard to imagine a second act for Weiner, like Eliot Spitzer’s television career or pretty much every day in the life of Bill Clinton? One explanation is that the Weiner scandal was especially sordid: drawn out, compounded daily with new revelations, covered up with embarrassing lies that made us want to look away. But another possibility is that there was something not weird, but too familiar about Weiner. His style might not be for everyone (to put it politely), but the impulse to be something other than what we are in our daily, monogamous lives, the thrill that comes from the illicit rather than the predictable, is something I imagine many couples can identify with. With his online flirtations and soft-porn photos, he did what a lot of us might do if we were lonely and determined to not really cheat.

That is one reason it was a relief when Weiner was drummed from office. In addition to giving us some good laughs, he forced us to ask particularly uncomfortable questions, like “what am I capable of doing?” and “what have my neighbors or friends done?” His visage was insisting, night after night, that we think about how hard monogamy is, how hard marriage is and about whether we make unrealistic demands on the institution and on ourselves.

That, anyway, is what Dan Savage, America’s leading sex-advice columnist, would say. Although best known for his It Gets Better project, an archive of hopeful videos aimed at troubled gay youth, Savage has for 20 years been saying monogamy is harder than we admit and articulating a sexual ethic that he thinks honors the reality, rather than the romantic ideal, of marriage. In Savage Love, his weekly column, he inveighs against the American obsession with strict fidelity. In its place he proposes a sensibility that we might call American Gay Male, after that community’s tolerance for pornography, fetishes and a variety of partnered arrangements, from strict monogamy to wide openness.

Savage believes monogamy is right for many couples. But he believes that our discourse about it, and about sexuality more generally, is dishonest. Some people need more than one partner, he writes, just as some people need flirting, others need to be whipped, others need lovers of both sexes. We can’t help our urges, and we should not lie to our partners about them. In some marriages, talking honestly about our needs will forestall or obviate affairs; in other marriages, the conversation may lead to an affair, but with permission. In both cases, honesty is the best policy.

“I acknowledge the advantages of monogamy,” Savage told me, “when it comes to sexual safety, infections, emotional safety, paternity assurances. But people in monogamous relationships have to be willing to meet me a quarter of the way and acknowledge the drawbacks of monogamy around boredom, despair, lack of variety, sexual death and being taken for granted.”

The view that we need a little less fidelity in marriages is dangerous for a gay-marriage advocate to hold. It feeds into the stereotype of gay men as compulsively promiscuous, and it gives ammunition to all the forces, religious and otherwise, who say that gay families will never be real families and that we had better stop them before they ruin what is left of marriage. But Savage says a more flexible attitude within marriage may be just what the straight community needs. Treating monogamy, rather than honesty or joy or humor, as the main indicator of a successful marriage gives people unrealistic expectations of themselves and their partners. And that, Savage says, destroys more families than it saves.

Savage, who is 46, has been writing Savage Love since 1991 for The Stranger, an alternative weekly paper in Seattle that syndicates it to more than 50 other newspapers. Savage’s sex advice puts me in mind of a smart, tough old grandmother, randy yet stern. It’s Dr. Ruth if she were interested in bondage and threesomes. And if she were Catholic: Savage was raised in ethnic-Irish Chicago, one of four children of a cop and a homemaker. He did some time in Catholic school, and his writing bears traces of the church’s stark moral clarity, most notable in his impatience with postmodern or queer theorizing or anything that might overturn the centrality of the stable nuclear family.

Savage is not a churchgoer, but he is a cultural Catholic. Listeners to “This American Life,” which since 1996 has aired his homely monologues about his family, might recognize the kinship of those personal stories to the Catholic homilies Savage heard every Sunday of his childhood. Less a scriptural exegesis, like what you get in many a Protestant church, the priest’s homily is often short and framed as a fable or lesson: it’s an easily digested moral tale. You can hear that practiced didacticism in his radio segments about DJ, the son that he and Terry Miller, his husband, adopted as an infant, and you can hear it in the moving piece he read about his mother, who, on her deathbed, said she loved Terry “like a daughter.”

And you can hear it in the It Gets Better project, Savage’s great contribution to family values. Last September, in response to the reported suicides of several young men bullied for being, or seeming, gay, Savage prevailed on the very private Miller, whom he married in 2005 in Vancouver, to make a video about how their lives got better after high school. In the video, they talk into the camera about their courtship, becoming parents and how wonderfully accepting their families have been. “We have really great lives together,” Miller says at the end. Savage adds, “And you can have a great life, too.” Savage posted the video on Sept. 21. Within two months, there were 10,000 videos from people attesting to their own it-gets-better experience, viewed a collective 35 million times. The “It Gets Better” book, a selection of narratives, made The Times’s nonfiction best-seller list. In May, the It Gets Better campaign was featured in an advertisement for Google’s Chrome Web browser.

It Gets Better is, in the end, a paean to stable families: it is a promise to gay youth that if they can just survive the bullying, they can have spouses and children when they grow up. With Savage, the goal is always the possibility of stable, adult families, for gays and straights alike. He is capable of pro-family rants that, stripped of his habitual profanity, would be indistinguishable from Christian-right fund-raising letters.

How, then, can Savage be a monogamy skeptic? When Savage first began writing Savage Love, it was a jokey column, one in which he aimed “to treat straight sex with the same revulsion that straight advice columnists had always had for gay sex,” as Savage told me, when we met in Seattle in April. But he quickly realized that his correspondents were turning to him to save their love lives, not their sex lives.

Today, Savage Love is less a sex column than a relationship column, one point of which is to help good unions last. Sexual fulfillment matters in its own right, but mainly it matters because without it, families are more likely to break apart. It is for the sake of staying together — not merely for the sake of orgasms — that Savage coined his famous acronym, “G.G.G.”: lovers ought to be good, giving and game (put another way, skilled, generous and up for anything). And if they cannot fulfill all of each other’s desires, then it may be advisable to decide to go outside the bounds of marriage if that is what it takes to make the marriage work.

Savage’s position on monogamy is frequently caricatured. He does not believe in promiscuity; indeed, his attacks on the anonymous-sex, gay-bathhouse culture were once taken as proof of a secret conservative agenda. And he does not believe that monogamy is wrong for all couples or even for most couples. Rather, he says that a more realistic sexual ethic would prize honesty, a little flexibility and, when necessary, forgiveness over absolute monogamy. And he believes nostalgically, like any good conservative, that we might look to the past for some clues.

“The mistake that straight people made,” Savage told me, “was imposing the monogamous expectation on men. Men were never expected to be monogamous. Men had concubines, mistresses and access to prostitutes, until everybody decided marriage had to be egalitar­ian and fairsey.” In the feminist revolution, rather than extending to women “the same latitude and license and pressure-release valve that men had always enjoyed,” we extended to men the confines women had always endured. “And it’s been a disaster for marriage.”

In their own marriage, Savage and Miller practice being what he calls “monogamish,” allowing occasional infidelities, which they are honest about. Miller was initially opposed to the idea. “You assume as a younger person that all relationships are monogamous and between two people, that love means nothing can come between you,” said Miller, who met Savage at a club in 1995, when he was 23 and Savage was 30. “Dan has taught me to be more realistic about that kind of stuff.

“It was four or five years before it came up,” Miller said. “It’s not about having three-ways with somebody or having an open relationship. It is just sort of like, Dan has always said if you have different tastes, you have to be good, giving and game, and if you are not G.G.G. for those tastes, then you have to give your partner the out. It took me a while to get down with that.” When I asked Savage how many extramarital encounters there have been, he laughed shyly. “Double digits?” I asked. He said he wasn’t sure; later he and Miller counted, and he reported back that the number was nine. “And far from it being a destabilizing force in our relationship, it’s been a stabilizing force. It may be why we’re still together.”

While his marriage opened up gradually, Savage says that “there’s not a one-size-fits-all way” to approach nonmonogamy, especially if both partners committed to monogamy at the start. “Folks on the verge of making those monogamous commitments,” Savage told me in one of our many e-mail exchanges, “need to look at the wreckage around them — all those failed monogamous relationships out there (Schwarzenegger, Clinton, Vitter, whoever’s on the cover of US magazine this week) — and have a conversation about what it’ll mean if one or the other partner should cheat. And agree, at the very least, to getting through it, to place a higher value on the relationship itself than on one component of it, sexual exclusivity.”

Not that heeding our desires always simplifies matters. One recent writer to Savage Love thought he would enjoy seeing his wife fool around with another man, and initially did: “Almost every kinky kind was being had and enjoyed.” But when his wife had vaginal intercourse with the other man, something happened. “It was as if all the air in the room was sucked out through my soul,” he writes. Savage’s reply is pragmatic: “If there’s a sex act — say, vaginal intercourse — that holds huge symbolic importance for you or your partner, it might be best to take that act off the menu.” The answer, to Savage’s way of thinking, is smarter boundaries, not hard-line rules about monogamy.

For most people, sex cannot be so transactional; it is bound up with emotional need — to feel we excite our partner above all others, to believe that we have primacy in their lives. The question is whether it’s possible to act on our desires sensibly, as Savage would have it, while maintaining the special equilibrium we trust our marriages, or long-term partnerships, to preserve. Do we know our relationships well enough to go outside them?

There have always been nonmonogamous marriages. In 2001, The Journal of Family Psychology summarized earlier research, finding that “infidelity occurs in a reliable minority of American marriages.” Estimates that “between 20 and 25 percent of all Americans will have sex with someone other than their spouse while they are married” are conservative, the authors wrote. In 2010, NORC, a research center at the University of Chicago, found that, among those who had ever been married, 14 percent of women and 20 percent of men admitted to affairs.

There is no agreement over how honestly we should discuss this reality with our own spouses. Some are nostalgic for the old hypocrisy, the code of silence, the mistresses and concubines men kept discreetly on the side. Clergy members may practice a kind of selective muteness: in their premarital counseling, they often do not stress the possibility of future affairs — but once an affair occurs, they vocally urge couples to tough it out. But what if they were to say, ahead of time: “You two love each other, and you promise you won’t stray, but you might. People do. And if you do, I hope you won’t think it’s the end of the world.”

Such straight talk about the difficulty of monogamy, Savage argues, is simply good sense. People who are eager to cheat need to be honest with their partners, but people who think they would never cheat need honesty even more. “The point,” he wrote on his blog last year, “is that people — particularly those who value monogamy — need to understand why being monogamous is so much harder than they’ve been led to believe.”

How exactly does Savage think talking about monogamy’s trials make practicing it easier? In part, by reminding people to be good, giving and game. Straight talk about why we might cheat helps couples figure out ways to keep each other satisfied at home. If I promise my wife that I would never, ever, ever sleep with another woman, the conversation might end there, the two of us gazing into each other’s eyes (even if our minds might be wandering). But if I say, “I’ve been feeling sexually unfulfilled lately because I have a secret fantasy about trading dirty pictures with a woman” — well, then maybe my wife will e-mail me some of her. And so monogamy is preserved.

“If you are expected to be monogamous and have one person be all things sexually for you, then you have to be whores for each other,” Savage says. “You have to be up for anything.”

Savage’s straight-talk approach has an intuitive appeal: our culture places a huge premium on honesty, or at least on confessional, therapeutic, Oprah-fied admissions. We are told to say what is on our minds, so why not extend that principle to sex? Why not tell your spouse everything you want, even if that includes wanting another person? My sense is that this kind of radical honesty may work best for couples who already have strong marriages. Where there is love and equality and no history of betrayal, one partner asking if she can have a fling may not be so risky. Her partner either says yes, and it happens, you hope, with only the best consequences; or the partner says no, in which case their relationship endures, maybe with a little disappointment on one side, a little suspicion on the other.

That is the ideal situation. What if the revelation that a partner is thinking about others creates a shift, one that plagues the marriage? Words have consequences, and most couples, knowing that jealousy is real and can beset any of us, opt for a tacit code of reticence. Not just about sex but about all sorts of things: there are couples who can express opinions about each other’s clothing choices or cooking or taste in movies, and there are couples who cannot. I don’t mind if my wife tells me another man is hot, but it took me a long time to accept her criticism of my writing. We all have many sensitive spots, but one of the most universal is the fear of not being everything to your partner — the fear, in other words, that she might find somebody worthier. It is the fear of being alone.

Where a relationship is troubled, and one partner senses, correctly, that aloneness is an imminent threat, then the other partner asking for permission to have a fling is no neutral act. If you are scared of losing your partner, you may say yes to anything she asks, including permission for an affair that will wound you deeply. “The problem is that with many of these couples, one partner wants it, and the other says yes because she’s afraid that he will leave her,” says Janis Abrahms Spring, a psychologist and couples’ therapist whose book, “After the Affair,” is about couples badly damaged by infidelity.

Spring is inclined to a pessimism as strong as Savage’s optimism — after all, she works with couples who have ended up in counseling — but she offers a persuasive reminder that there may be no such thing as total honesty. Even when we think we are enthusiastically assenting to a partner’s request, we may not know ourselves as well as we think we do. This is true not just for monogamy but also for sexual acts within marriage. Some of Savage’s toughest critics are feminists who think he can be a bit too glib with his injunction to please our partners.

“Sometimes he can shame women for not being into things that their male partners are into, if they have male partners,” Sady Doyle, a feminist blogger, told me. “The whole good-giving-and-game thing is something I actually agree with. I don’t think you should flip out on your partner if they share something sexual with you. But I think sometimes it’s much harder for women to say, ‘I’m not into that,’ or ‘Please, I don’t want to do that, let’s do something else,’ than it is to say, ‘Sure.’ Putting all the onus on the person who doesn’t have that fetish or desire, particularly if the person who doesn’t have that desire is the woman, really reproduces a lot of old structures and means of oppression for women.”

Spring and Doyle both hint at a larger truth about men and women, which is that, generally speaking, they view sex differently. While there are plenty of women who can separate sex from love, can be happily promiscuous or could have a meaningless, one-time fling, there are — let’s face it — more men like that. The world of Savage Love will always appeal more to men, even men who truly love their partners. Cheating men are often telling the truth when they say, “She meant nothing to me.” It really was just sex. And Savage tells us that, with proper disclosure and consent, just sex can be O.K.

But for many women, and not a few men, there is no such thing as “just sex,” for their partners or for themselves. What if a woman, or a man for that matter, looks outside marriage for the other emotional satisfactions that come along with sex? Savage has less to offer that person. He does not tell people to take long-term boyfriends or girlfriends. He is skeptical that group marriages, of three or more partners, can last very long. Nor could he have much to offer the person who feels a partner ought to constrain his urges. There is a reason that sex advice is easier to give than relationship advice. Satisfying a sexual yearning is easier than satisfying a hole in your life.

In an e-mail he sent me, Savage countered that “there are plenty of women out there who have affairs just for the sex.” But he agreed that there is something male about his perspective. “Well, I’m male,” he wrote. “And women, straight women, are in relationships with men. Doesn’t it help to know what we’re really like? Women can go on marrying and pretending that their boyfriends and husbands are Mr. Darcy or some RomCom dream man. But where’s that going to get ’em? Besides divorce court?”

Savage’s honesty ethic gives couples permission to find happiness in unusual places; he believes that pretty much anything can be used to spice up a marriage, although he excludes feces, pets and incest, as well as minors, the nonconsenting, the duped and the dead. In “The Commitment,” Savage’s book about his and Miller’s decision to marry, he describes how a college student approached him after a campus talk and said, as Savage tells it, that “he got off on having birthday cakes smashed in his face.” But no one had ever obliged him. “My heart broke when he told me that the one and only time he told a girlfriend about his fetish, she promptly dumped him. Since then he had been too afraid to tell anyone else.” Savage took the young man up to his hotel room and smashed a cake in his face.

The point is: priests and rabbis don’t tell couples they might need to involve cake play in their marriages; moms and dads don’t; even best friends can be shy about saying what they like. Savage wants to make sure that no strong marriage ever fails because an ashamed husband or wife is desperately seeking cake play — or bondage, urine play or any of the other unspeakable activities that Savage has helped make speakable. If cake play is what a man needs, his G.G.G. wife should give it to him; if she can’t bring herself to, then maybe she should allow him a chocolate-frosted excursion with another woman. But for God’s sake, keep it together for the kids.

[Doc's Note - Mark, where did that inane "keep it together for the kids" come from?  "Savage does not believe people should live in toxic, miserable marriages."]

If you believe Savage, there is strong precedent, in other times and in other cultures, for nonmonogamous relationships that endure. In fact, there has recently been a good deal of scholarship proving that point, including Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá’s “Sex at Dawn,” one of Savage’s favorite books, and Stephanie Coontz’s definitive “Marriage, a History.” Like Savage, Coontz says she believes that “people often end up exploding a relationship that was working well because one partner strays or has an affair that doesn’t mean anything.”

But, she says, we are to some extent trapped in our culture. It is one thing for the Inuit men to have “temporary wives,” whom they take along on trips when they leave their other wives at home, and for pregnant Bari women, in Venezuela, to have sex with multiple men, all of whom are considered responsible for the eventual child. Their societies have very different ideas about marriage. “I think you can combine a high tolerance of flings with a de-emphasis on jealousy in long-term relationships,” Coontz said, “but usually that is only in societies where friendships and kin relationships are as emotionally salient as romantic partnerships.”

In the 18th century, according to Coontz, American men could mention their mistresses in letters to their wives’ brothers; they could mention contracting syphilis from a prostitute. Men understood the masculine prerogative, and they countenanced it, even at the expense of their own sisters. “That would be unthinkable today,” Coontz said. “For thousands of years it was expected of men they would have affairs and flings, but not on the terms of honesty and equality Dan envisions. I can certainly see the appeal of suggesting we try and make this an open, mutual, gender-equal arrangement. I’m a little dubious how much that is going to work.”

It was not until the 20th century that Americans evolved an understanding of marriage in which partners must meet all of each other’s needs: sexual, emotional, material. When we rely on our partners for everything, any hint of betrayal is terrifying. “That is the bind we are in,” Coontz said. “We accord so much priority to the couple relationship. It is tough under those conditions for most people to live with the insecurity of giving their partners permission to have flings.”

There is one subculture in America that practices nonmonogamy and equality between partners: the sizable group of gay men in open, or semiopen, long-term partnerships. (A study published in 2010 found 50 percent of gay male couples in the Bay Area had sexual relationships outside their union, with their partner’s knowledge and approval.) But it is unclear if gay habits, which Savage thinks can be a model, will survive the advent of gay equality. Historically, gay men have treated monogamy more casually, in part because society treated gay coupledom as unthinkable. Now, however, gay men are marrying or entering into socially sanctioned partnerships. As they are absorbed into the mainstream of connubial bliss, they may lose the strong friendship networks that gay men once substituted for nuclear families — friendship networks that, according to Coontz, can make infidelity less threatening. In other words, as they take out joint mortgages and pal around with straight parents from the PTA, they may become considerably more square about fidelity. Living in their McMansions, they, too, may decide that the walls of their marriages must be guarded at all costs.

Judith Stacey, a New York University sociologist who researched gay men’s romantic arrangements for her book “Unhitched,” argues that gay men, in general, will continue to require less monogamy. “They are men,” she said, and she believes it is easier for them — right down to the physiology of orgasm — to separate physical and emotional intimacy. Lesbians and straight women tend to be far less comfortable with nonmonogamy than gay men. But what matters is that neither monogamy nor polygamy is humankind’s sole natural state. “One size never fits all, and it isn’t just dividing between men and women and gay and straight,” she said. “Monoga­my is not natural, nonmonogamy is not natural. Variation is what’s natural.”

I asked Stacey if, given the differences between men and women, she thought Savage’s vision was unrealistic for straight couples. Yes and no, she said: “I believe monogamy is actually crucial for some couples and totally irrelevant for others.” That does not mean that nonmonogamous couples are free to do as they please. Creating nonmonogamy that strengthens rather than corrodes a marriage is surely as much work as monogamy. Couples should make vows and honor them. Not all good relationships require monogamy, but they all require what she calls integrity.

“What integrity means for me is we shouldn’t impose a single vow of monogamy as a superior standard for all relationships,” Stacey said. “Intimate partners should decide the vows you want to make. Work out terms of what your commitments are, and be on same page. There are women perfectly happy to have agreements in which when you are out of town you can have a little fling on the side. And rules range from ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ to ‘I want to know’ to ‘bring it home and talk about it and excite our relationship.’ ”

Stacey and Savage each say that monogamy is the right choice for many couples; they are exalting options, not any particular option. As a straight, monogamous, married male, I happen to think this is a good thing: if there are people whose marriages work best with more flexibility, they should find the courage to choose an arrangement that works for them, society be damned. I also recognize, however, that we may choose marriage in part to escape the terror of choice. There are so many reasons to marry; we could call them all “love,” but let’s be more specific: admiring how she looks in a sundress, trusting her to improve your first drafts, knowing that when the time comes she will make the best mother ever. But another reason might be that life before her was so confusing. In all those other relationships, it was never clear when there was an exclusive commitment or who would use the L-word first or when a Saturday-night date could be assumed.

[Doc's Note:  These definitions of love seem miserably shallow to me.]

Marrying has the virtue of clearing all that up: exclusive, you both use the L-word, Saturday night assumed. Simple, right?

Not long ago, I mentioned Savage to a psychotherapist who works with children. He said that the It Gets Better project had saved the lives of several of his patients. “They tell me they might have killed themselves if it weren’t for Dan Savage,” my friend said, as tears filled his eyes.

Hearing such reactions, and having been personally subjected by Savage to his earnest, ardent effusions about his wonderful husband and awesome son, it is tough to credit anyone who thinks Savage is a subversive figure. When I think of Savage, I think of his response to the mother whose ex-husband, her son’s father, was undergoing a sex change. Her son was angry, and she wondered what she should say to him. Savage said the boy was entitled to his feelings. “Children have a right to some stability and constancy from the adults in their lives,” Savage wrote. “Perhaps I’m a transphobic bigot,” but asking a father to wait “a measly 36 months” before having his penis chopped off “is a sacrifice any father should be willing to make for his 15-year-old son. Call me old-fashioned.”

Savage is old-fashioned, as bitterly hilarious as that might sound to gay-marriage opponents. After the news of the Arnold Schwarzenegger love child broke, I received an e-mail from Savage in which he expressed concern about the article I was writing. As I would expect, he framed his position in terms of respect for the family.

“I’m afraid,” he wrote, “it’s going to become: ‘This Savage person is krazy. Just look at what nonmonogamy did for Arnold! Look at the chaos that being nonmonogamous creates! Failed marriages, devastated children, scandal!’ But Arnold wasn’t in a nonmonogamous relationship. He was in a monogamous relationship. He failed at monogamy; he didn’t succeed at nonmonogamy.”

Savage does not believe people should live in toxic, miserable marriages. The Schwarzenegger family is surely beyond repair. But they are an extreme case: not all adultery produces secret families. Most of it is minor by comparison, and Savage believes that adultery can be one of those trials, like financial woes or ill health, that marriages can be expected to survive.

“Given the rates of infidelity, people who get married should have to swear a blood oath that if it’s violated, as traumatic as that would be, the greater good is the relationship,” Savage told me. “The greater good is the home created for children. If there are children present, they’ll get past it. The cultural expectation should be if there’s infidelity, the marriage is more important than fidelity.”

It gets better? It does. But it also gets very complicated. Savage is not arguing “let Arnold be Arnold.” He is imploring us to know the people we marry and to know ourselves and to plan accordingly. He believes that our actions mark us as a compassionate people, that in truth we are always ready to forgive an adulterer, except the one we are married to. He points out that the Louisiana senator, and prominent john, David Vitter — “who I hate,” he reassures me — is still in office, and that “Bill Clinton is a beloved elder statesman, and Eliot Spitzer is back on television.” We are already a nation of forgivers, even when it comes to marriage. Dan Savage thinks we should take some pride in that.

Mark Oppenheimer (mark.oppenheimer@nytimes.com) writes the Beliefs column for The Times. He is also the author of a memoir, ‘‘Wisenheimer: A Childhood Subject to Debate,’’ now in paperback. Editor: Vera Titunik (v.titunik-MagGroup@nytimes.com)

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: July 3, 2011

The article on Page 22 this weekend about marital infidelity misidentifies a disease contracted from prostitutes that men in the 18th century could write or talk freely about. It is syphilis, not smallpox.

11/29/07

Gay Marriage - Still an issue!

This letter was originally written to The Salt Lake Tribune OP-ED section in response to local agitation over the Mormon (LDS) Church's overt (and successful) attempts to manipulate California politics against homosexual union. Then again in 2004 Utah attempted to amend the Utah State Constitution (Amendment 3) to prohibit equality under the law in relation to marriage - especially as it affects homosexuals - but also practitioners of other alternative forms of marriage.
I'm not gay and don’t want to be. I do believe I (and everyone else including you) should retain the right to choose who and what we will be and believe and practice and that our personal rights only end "where the other guys rights begin".
The Tribune for unspecified reasons (length - truth) failed to publish or follow up on this letter. I don't think the issue has changed enough to require a re-write or update except to say that I am personally scandalized by the Utah/Mormon bigotry and hypocrisy especially in this matter.
At the time I wrote this letter I was a devout Mormon. Now, as a non-Mormon and having looked at some of my old Mormon beliefs from a bit of a distance, I see how bigoted the basic Mormon Theological Perspective is and appreciate how difficult and emotionally challenging it is for "devotees" to "clear the fog" of theocratic social programming sufficiently to even perceive the issue or find remedy to it. To me, the Mormon Dilemma is a huge one. Admitting to your own blind or overt hypocrisy and self-delusion is awkward, painful and embarrassing to an unbelievable degree.
The whole "Chosen People" doctrine is basic to both Mormonism and their anti-Christian postures. So please recognize that my "us and them" - ism is a reflection of my "then-held" acceptance of basic doctrine and the theological requirement to "bend" my perspective to match what was represented (by scripture and a "living prophet") to be "God's" perspective.
To muster the courage to challenge "God" essentially, is rare and frightening and there really is no one to help pick up the pieces or (in Utah at least) smooth over the social rejection.
Truth does indeed have a price - the false sense of security we all chase endlessly.
Do Homosexuals Have the Right to Marriage
Subject: Who’s being Unfair?
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 22:02:34 -0700
From: Dr. Gregor Lowrey,
To: Editor, Salt Lake Tribune
Regarding the letter from STEVE INMAN of Salt Lake City who feels people have been too harsh on the LDS church for it’s political maneuverings to deny homosexuals the same “legal” rights and benefits as heterosexuals in contracting relationships.
We might remember the LDS Articles of Faith, number 11.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Is denying civil or religious rights to others part of our faith?
When Steve says
“I know the church considers homosexual activity as a sin, but for as long as I have been acquainted with the church I have heard its leaders time and time again say, “hate the sin, but love the sinner.”
Yet it seems he is suggesting that because the church leaders consider such activity as sinful, that others who may or may not be LDS or even Christian at all, must lay aside their right to free exercise of conscience and accept our view that their “legal” behavior is sinful and that we would force our religious views on them by an act of law! What ever happened to free agency?
The Lord (for us Mormons) has declared His law regarding marriage and marriage type relationships, these being authorized by the parties involved or government (or other authorizing agency) or God.
D&C 132: Verse 7
7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows; performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
D&C 132: Verse 8
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
The Lord does in no way limit the type or kind of contract that may be entered into, actually going to great lengths to show that the law was inclusive to any and all agreements without qualification. The fact that these verses declare all unsanctified unions or contracts to “have an end when men are dead”, by implication also declares that ALL contracts willingly entered into by responsible parties are legitimate and binding according to the Lord for the duration of earth life or until “men are dead” with the exception of “eternal marriage” which traverses death.
D&C 132:Verse 15
15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.
Here we see that even a contract between only the two contracting/covenanting parties (in this case a man and woman) not even involving government sanction is considered valid and is honored by God until the death of the contractors. It is “Legal” to God, according to “earthly” law.
The intention of the Mormon marriage relationship is, to my understanding, twofold:
a) To form a “whole” human unit necessary to qualify for celestial exaltation
b) To “multiply and replenish”, that is providing bodies for premortal spirits with which they experience earth life.
If a person chooses to not seek exaltation and does not seek to “multiply and replenish the earth” with their DNA, then the fact that their marriage intentions are contrary to “God’s ‘Celestial’ Plan” is essentially irrelevant.
For those who seek to pursue “God’s Plan for Men and Women” (exaltation) the nature of the marriage relationship is decidedly all-important, but to those who are not inclined to exaltation it makes little difference.
One might wonder that the LDS wouldn’t be relieved that those who have a disposition toward what they consider “sin” are sticking together and no longer contributing to the gene pool. And they are wrong to assume that the homosexual world wields some magical, evil power to recruit and pervert these valiant souls, saved for the last days, a power so potent that their children are helpless of defense.
Again these LDS parents deny their own children now the right of free agency, claiming they are easy prey and helpless to choose for themselves. These same parents want to lay the blame on the evil homosexuals rather than accept the fact that they, the parents are the ones who have failed to teach, primarily because they do not practice what they preach.
Like Jesus said, “They do honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.”
At any rate, those individuals who do “accept the call to serve” are held to a different standard than those who fail or are unwilling to receive the “call” at all.
If we were all to be judged by the standard set by, say, Jesus, according to the “calling” he received and accepted, well - we’d be sunk!
I don’t think I have ever heard of a couple interested in seeking a “celestial homosexual marriage”.
If we are being “true” to our beliefs, what have we to fear from them being true to theirs?
Can we consider it Christian behavior to FORCE them to abandon their agency to choose not to participate in God’s great plan for the exaltation of man and operate by the standard of those who do choose that personal standard?
George Q. Cannon General Conference April, 1879
But suppose the Latter-day Saints had control; suppose their ideas were fulfilled, that is, that we, as it is destined we shall be, were the people who uphold Constitutional government upon this continent, who restored the government to its primitive condition when all the political parties shall have fallen into chaos; would we feel at liberty to say that none but the Latter-day Saints should be elected to offices of trust and responsibility? No. Joseph Smith set the pattern; he taught the brethren who were with him better ideas; you well-informed Latter-day Saints know that there are two powers which God has restored in these the last days. One is the Church of God , the other the Kingdom of God A man may belong to the Kingdom of God and yet not be a member of the Church of God . In the Kingdom of God, using it in a political sense, there may be heathens and Pagans and Mahommedans and Latter-day Saints and Presbyterians and Episcopalians and Catholics and men of every creed (Perhaps even Homosexuals) Will they legislate for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints alone? Will the laws that they enact protect us alone and not protect others? No. Why? Because God is the Father of the Latter-day Saints as well as of every human being; God is the father of all, is the father of the Chinaman, the Hindoo, the African, the European, the American; is the Father of all the races of men and of every creed and nationality. (Even Homosexuals) When he establishes his kingdom it will protect all in their equal rights; I as a Latter-day Saint, will not have power to trample on my fellow-man who may not be orthodox in my opinion, because I am a Latter-day Saint; nor will my fellow-man to whom I am heterodox, have the power to trample upon me. Does not that look right? That is the kind of kingdom we have to contend for; that Is the kind of kingdom we have to establish, and it is already provided for in the Constitution given unto us by God~ and through the glorious labors of the fathers who aid the foundation of this government, who were inspired and raised by our Almighty Father for this express purpose. There Is no liberty that a human being can desire, neither is there a right that can be exercised properly, that we do not have under the Constitution of our land. It needs no amendment about it; it is broad enough, if interpreted in its true spirit, to cover the individual, the continent, and the entire globe and furnish freedom for all. (Even Homosexuals?)
Now, Latter-day Saints, lf you have had narrow views I will tell you to put them aside. I do not mean by this you must take everybody (or Homosexuals) into your houses. There is the difference.
If we allow equality under the law to homosexuals, it does not mean that YOU will have to enter into a homosexual marriage yourself, nor will your children be required to do so. But if you want to exercise your God given right to choose, you will be able to.
God, the Father of us all expressly states that He has given us ALL the right to choose and make any covenant that seems good to us personally. God has told us which covenants will have force after death, but He does not restrict us in making any temporal covenant. Satan, as I recall is the one who desired to restrict agency and make it against the law for us to choose contrary to God’s will.
President Brigham Young
Tabernacle Address
July 31, 1859
The Gospel covenants are for those who believe and obey; municipal laws are for both Saint and sinner.
Whoever lives to see the kingdom of God fully established upon the earth will see a government that will protect every person in his rights. If that government was now reigning upon this land of Joseph, you would see the Roman Catholic, the Greek Catholic, the Episcopalian, the Presbyterian, the Methodist, the Baptist, the Quaker, the Shaker, the Hindoo, the Mahometan, and every class of worshippers most strictly protected in all their municipal rights and in the privilege of worshipping who, what, and when they pleased, not infringing upon the rights of others. Does any candid person in his sound judgment desire any greater liberty?
So “every class”, even Homosexuals perhaps, are to be “most strictly protected” in both “Municipal Rights” AND “in the Privilege of Worshipping” Who, What, and When THEY pleased as long as they don’t FORCE YOU to THINK LIKE THEM.
Conversely, we should not think it a righteous act to try to FORCE THEM to THINK LIKE US!
Moses Thatcher General Conference October 1885
Whenever the Latter-day Saints shall have reached that high degree of excellence in the administration of the laws of God as to judge impartially between the Saint and sinner, when they shall be willing to give Satan his rights as quickly as a Saint or a brother, then will judgment and rule be placed within their reach...
Whether a man is a heathen or a Christian, when the kingdom of God is established, he will have his rights and liberties extended to him. There will be no bias, no prejudice, every thing will be done according to the laws of justice and equity.
Have we always, as a people, I may ask, manifested a disposition to act upon the basis of principle? You can answer the question for yourselves. Have you been willing, as Latter-day Saints to extend to the Gentile as readily his rights, under your municipal, your county or your Territorial government as you would extend them to a Latter-day Saint? If you have, then have we administered upon the basis of principle; but if we have not, then we have not come to an understanding of that which the Lord has revealed...
God will govern His kingdom as He governs throughout His universe, by the laws of justice and equity.
I repeat that the Constitution, laws, and institutions of our Government are as good as can be, with the intelligence now possessed by the people.
But they, as also the laws of other nations, are too often administered in unrighteousness; and we do not and cannot love and respect the acts of the administrators of our laws, unless they act justly in their officers.
Brigham Young
Tabernacle Address
July 31, 1859
The Lord has thus far protected and preserved the human family under their various forms and administrations of government, notwithstanding their wickedness, and is still preserving them; but if the kingdom of God, or a theocratic government, was established on the earth, many practices now prevalent would be abolished
One community would not be permitted to array itself in opposition to another to coerce them to their standard; one denomination would not be suffered to persecute another because they differed in religious belief and mode of worship. Every one would be fully protected In the enjoyment of all religious and social rights, and no state, no government, no community, no person would have the privilege of infringing on the rights of another: One Christian community would not rise up and persecute another.
I will here remark that we are generally looked upon as a dangerous people, and for the reason that there are thousands and millions of people who are afraid that justice will be meted out to them; and they say, to use Scripture language, that “if the Saints are let alone, they will take away our place and nation, and will measure to us what we have measured to them.” They conclude thus because they estimate others by themselves, realizing that if they had the power to deprive us of our rights, they would exercise It. “We will judge you Latter-day Saints by ourselves. If we had the power to destroy you, we would do It; and we are afraid that if you are let alone, you will have the power to destroy us and will do as we would under like circumstances.“ If this people had that power to-day, they would not infringe in the least upon the rights of any person; neither could they, without ceasing to be Saints.
And yet this is exactly what is being attempted. To my mind, it is not Saintly behavior.
Then, when a person or community says, "I do not want to believe your religion," they will enjoy liberty to believe as they please, as fully as we shall.
The Creator has given agency to every son and daughter of Adam, and he does not infringe upon our agency. We are at liberty to believe in him and in his son Jesus Christ, or to let it alone.
When the kingdom of God is established, we can believe in the principles of the eternal Priesthood or in something else, and be equally protected in our outward rights. My law, says Jehovah, is pure: it is the law by which the worlds are made, and by which all things are. Those laws tend to exaltation and power; but the world is observing rules that tend to death. You have the privilege of believing and practising a law that will bring to an end, if you wish, not only to the first death, but also to the second.
Jesus has taught us not to fear those wicked persons that are seeking our lives. Do not fear those who only have power to destroy the body, and after that can harm you no more; but fear God and observe the laws he has given and will give, that evil spirits may have not power over you after the body is left to rest.
Jehovah has decreed and plainly foretold the establishment of his kingdom upon this earth; and it will prove to be a shield to the ordinances of his house, in the endowments, and in all the gifts and graces of the Spirit of God with which the Priesthood, so to speak, is clothed. The municipal laws of that kingdom are designed for the protection of all classes of people in their legitimate rights; and were it now in its fulness upon the earth, and the New Jerusalem built upon this continent, which is the land of Zion, and Latter-day Saints would not alone enjoy Its blessings, but all denominations and communities would be alike protected in their rights, whether they worshipped the Supreme Author of our existence, or the sun, or the moon, or, as do some of our aborigines, a white dog; and none will be permitted to infringe upon their neighbours, though every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The Hindoos would have the privilege of erecting their temples and of worshipping as they pleased; but they would not be permitted to compel other worshippers to conform to their mode of worship, nor to burn their companions upon the funeral pyre; for that would interfere with individual rights.
Joseph Smith
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith
Pg. 326-327
It is one of the first principles of my life, and one that I have cultivated from my childhood, having been taught it by my father, to allow every one the liberty of conscience. I am the greatest advocate of the Constitution of the United States there is on the earth. In my feelings I am always ready to die for the protection of the weak and oppressed in their just rights. The only fault I find with the Constitution is, it is not broad enough to cover the whole ground.
Although it provides that all men shall enjoy religious freedom, yet it does not provide the manner by which that freedom can be preserved, nor for the punishment of Government officers who refuse to protect the people in their religious rights, or punish those mobs, states, or communities who interfere with the rights of the people on account of their religion. Its sentiments are good, but it provides no means of enforcing them. It has but this one fault. Under its provision, a man or a people who are able to protect themselves can get along well enough; but those who have the misfortune to be weak or unpopular are left to the merciless rage of popular fury.
The constitution should contain a provision that every officer of the Government who should neglect or refuse to extend the protection guaranteed in the Constitution should be subject to capital punishment…
And when Steve or the church says
“It seems to me that families with homosexual loved ones are not being asked to sacrifice love for their children in support of this cause. The LDS Church I know is out to protect the family, not to tear it apart.”
Is he or are they suggesting that these children do not deserve the right to the same legal benefits, insurance and health benefits, inheritance etc. as the children of heterosexuals?
I do believe that the “marriage issue” for homosexuals does really and has always revolved around the social and legal rights and benefits of “government” sanctioned relationships.
So why shouldn’t these children be able to have the same rights and benefits as other children. Why shouldn’t partners who are living in relationships identical to accepted “marriage” relationships, enjoy the same legal and social privileges extended to other committed relationships. Aren’t the “legal” rights based on “commitment” and not on religion?
If we have the priesthood and are teaching our children the “values of heaven” as we see them, why should we fear and persecute Homosexuals? Why should (and how could) we deny them the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
If we believe we are here on earth to enjoy the uninhibited exercise of “free agency” wouldn’t we consider it unrighteous dominion to deny such exercise of agency.
What about the word of the Lord,
D&C 121:Verse 37
… when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
I think “our pride” and “vain ambition” are certainly among the root causes in our efforts to force the world to bow to our view of what is and what is not a marriage. I think Webster’s definition of marriage as “an intimate or close union” certainly applies to the issue at hand.
Certainly, when we tell our homosexual children that they are unworthy of legitimized companionship, health benefits, property and inheritance rights and such rights for their natural or adopted children (our grandchildren), it would not be a stretch to think they would feel rejected and unloved and proclaimed to have less human value than say, Charlie Manson, who could get married today if he had an applicant.
I believe the Lord did not exclude Homosexuals when He declared “the Greatest Law” and the “second” which is “like unto it” upon which laws hang all that God is.
Lack of desire to participate in what “we” believe to be God’s plan should not deprive anyone of municipal rights. This proposal, to me begs infringement of the separation of church and state. There cannot be any other than religious ground to seek to deny homosexuals the same human and civil rights that the rest of us enjoy. To do so would be to use the government to “establish religion” and deny civil and religious freedom to legitimate citizens.
We should not blame our fears, resulting from our own lack of dedication to, and faith in God on the supposed “sin” of another.
The homosexuals are not our enemies – but who could blame them for being grieved when fellow citizens, in the self righteous presumption of “representing God”, seek to have them declared less than human and deny an entire class of citizens basic rights on the basis of their sexual orientation.
John Taylor
Quoted in: The Last Pioneer John Taylor, a Mormon Prophet,
Samuel W. Taylor pg. 334, 361
It may suit others to violate the law, to trample upon human rights and desecrate the sacred term of liberty…in the name of justice. But we profess to be governed by higher, by nobler, and more exalted principles…
When men begin to tear down the barriers and tamper with the fundamental principles and institutions of our country, they are playing a very dangerous game, and are severing the bonds which hold society together.
What does it mean, to be like them (political oppressors)? It means that E pluribus unum is a fiction; it means that we tamper with and violate that grand palladium of human liberty, the Constitution of the United States, and substitute expediency, anarchy, fanaticism, intolerance, and religious bigotry for those glorious fundamental principles of liberty, equality, brotherhood, human freedom, and the rights of man…
We cannot do it.
As the cartoon character Pogo so aptly put it, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.” (not them)
Know this that every soul is free, to choose his life and what he’ll be;
For this eternal truth is given, That God will force no man to heaven.
(Ids hymn #90)
Gregor Lowrey
Lehi , Utah